So what do you need to know? The album, Nowhere, is on Matador. It's loaded with covers and ever-so-tuneful B.Manning originals . . . bouncy pop numbers cut up with scratchy needles, sampled noise and fragments.
The live version of the Seals, a foursome, played an early show at Duke Coffeehouse July 29. They did some of her solo stuff (like "Lately I Keep Scissors" from her debut LP and "Sympathy Wreath" from One Perfect Green Blanket, both available on one very affordable and very worthy Heyday CD) and turned out odd arrangements of several Nowhere songs. Barbara couldn't keep a straight face, even during the Led Zepplin cover.
Our interview took place before the show at WXDU, where Barbara showed up at the last minute to fill in for an absent DJ. Extremely down-to-earth and absolutely unguarded, she was a dream to talk to. (CM)
Have you seen the Independent? They plugged your show, but compared you to Liz Phair. Do you get that kind of thing a lot?
I hate that! Only lately has it been Liz Phair. About seven years ago I used to hear Susanne Vega's name a lot.
Being on the same label as Liz Phair doesn't help, I guess. Are you conscious of the way you're promoted? Do you have a lot of say as far as that's concerned? Like are there particular things you will and will not do?
Matador knows there are magazines I will not do things for.
What are they?
I've turned Spin down three times. I'm not comfortable with doing a cover picture, like being on the cover of Option or something.
Would you play on Conan O'Brien?
My mom told me that the only things she wants me to do some day is be on Saturday Night Live or David Letterman, so I'd do those for her, but not Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien.
Why wouldn't you do something for Spin? Because you don't like it?
At the time they were asking me, I had a good reason because the record wasn't out, so I said wait till the record comes out and then I'll have something to talk about. I didn't want it to be the pre-hype thing . . .
Like there was with Liz Phair . . .
And Pavement, too. I just don't think it's healthy for the artist. But then again I don't know because I'm not a marketing person.
It's like having all those little stuffed lions for the Lion King before the movie even comes out.
Exactly. It freaks people out before they have a chance to digest it for themselves. I don't plan to be in the music business for very long so I don't want to play the hype machine. I want to have a life after this that isn't embarrassing. Plus, I really react negatively to people who become popular. Like I just find myself having a prejudice against them immediately if I see their name everywhere. I won't even give them a chance. Which is probably not the best attitude. It'd probably be better to take everything as it is without looking at it through the mass media. I really love Matador, but I definitely butted heads with the publicity people when I was consistently turning down things that they thought were really good. Like I was asked to do Interview magazine. They wanted me to do something where I had to . . .
(laughs) Wear clothes!
And I was like no way! First off, I wanted it to be with the band and they wanted it to be Barbara Manning. They wanted to know my size, and then wanted to send me clothes from a store I never shop in. The whole thing seemed like it was going to be an ad except I wasn't going to get paid for it the way I should be. I mean, I'd be more likely to do an ad for Taco Bell or something that I actually like.
You can save that for when you're out of the music business.
Yeah, like Joe DiMaggio doing Mr. Coffee.
If Spin or Rolling Stone asked you to do an interview now, would you?
If they would do it with the band, or if I could talk about the band endlessly. It has to be seen as a band or I'll get really bored. I don't want to be alone all the time...You know, you can only do what you can relate to. Liz Phair is making a lot of money for the label that I get money from, so go Liz Phair!! But we are on such different paths. The way she writes songs and the way I do are just so different. I think I'm weirder.
I was reading a review in Animal Review of the new record and the critic was saying how they felt the weird noises were a calculated effort to seem like you're more than a pop group.
I've gotten lots of bad reviews of this record. But, to tell you the truth, I just don't care. The record was completely a selfish thing; I wasn't even thinking of how to please my sister or my mom. I was completely pleasing myself. Every single second on that record I know really well. We'd been collecting sounds for months. I knew I wanted to have a nice, long improv piece. Maybe certain things were calculated because I knew I wanted to do them. But they were only for myself. I guess I shouldn't be so selfish and make a record that makes more sense to me than anyone else but I was really trying to make a soundtrack for how I was feeling and I wasn't feeling that happy at the time. A lot of the extra soundbits meant something, for me, like an upset stomach or your brain getting overwhelmed by voices...These things are like an inside joke and I'm the only one who gets it.
Sounds like a good way to make records!
I finally had a budget I could do extra things with. Matador has been very supportive and very generous. I only have a one-record deal with them. The label that it came out on in Germany doesn't like it at all. They think all the extra stuff is a big waste.
Do you think they might not like all the covers on it?
I think they like the softer, sadder, more direct stuff.
Singer/songwriter-type-thing.
Yeah, which sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. I've never really identified with the singer/songwriter title. I'd rather work in collaboration with people. I don't necessarily always want to do pop music either.
But you haven't always done pop music!
I know, if you go back to the early singles . . .
How does it work live?
I have a solo show where I use tape loops. Like I did this Fast Forward festival in Germany, which was all four-trackers -- Smog, Sebadoh, Tall Dwarfs, Dump -- and for that I brought all my toys. But I didn't bring any of the tape loops with me on this tour because I have a band and I'd rather highlight the instruments than play the tapes. ...I really like doing covers so much! Usually my songs are really sad. It's hard to sing them. When I do a cover, I'm almost happier. I definitely think you can take a song and re-record, re-work it many times.
To what extent are the Seals "Barbara Manning's band." Would you prefer to not have your name connected to the band?
Yeah, I made the record specifically to do that. The San Francisco Seals. There's a list of the people on it, it doesn't say what they do, it's in alphabetical order so my name's in the middle. I was really proud to have production credit on it, though. I'd love to someday produce someone else's record. But my biggest desire as far as music goes is to be in a band where I am not the leader, not the focus, where the audience looks at the whole band rather than me. I get really uncomfortable in that position.
Have you ever had that with your previous bands, like 28th Day or World of Pooh?
Unfortunately with World of Pooh, that sort of element crept in; people would review the album and talk about me. That was really a problem. I'm not a prolific songwriter. I don't feel like a leader. I will be so happy to be in a band that's seen as a band. And that's why I keep pushing the Seals, even if, well, Brently is in my band back home but I just asked the rest of the guys to go on tour with me. We'd only played six shows before and we were still learning the songs when we started. So this is my back-up band for now but I want everyone to feel equal. If they want to write the set-list or throw in a lead or something, they're free to do that.
Would you not sing?
I would be happy (not) to, but I also understand, because I've been talked to about this, that I am promoting an album. And so I have a responsibility to promote an album and that album is full of songs that I sing . . .but we also do some of my old songs too. I'm working with strongly improvisational people, we could not play a single song that's been written and make up a 45-minute set . . . but I kind of want to please the audience.
Yeah, what the hell . . . Which people on the record are touring with you?
Jay Paget from Thinking Fellers and World of Pooh is on the record but he primarily did samples with me, helped mix tapes. He's the drummer for this trip. And Brently Pusser is my permanent guitarist now, but only since beginning of this year. I asked him to play on the record and I've always admired him in 3 Day Stubble. 3 Day Stubble is his main thing, it's been that way for 13 years. So the Seals are secondary for him. Then Chris Milner from the Molecules is playing bass. And usually at home there's Margaret Murray (U.S. Saucer) and Melanie Clarin who's in a million bands. She's my drummer, she's like my partner but she hates to tour.
And you're doing other stuff besides the Seals?
Yeah, I can't help it.
Don't you have something with Stuart Moxham that's supposed to be coming out?
Yeah, I love doing projects with other people. I have this feeling I can do anything, any style of music...well, I don't think I could do rap `cause I don't think I could talk that fast...so I was invited to work with Stuart Moxham (Young Marble Giants) and Jon Langford (Mekons), given $20 a day for food. I got to spend two weeks in a studio and just sang. There was like 12 or 13 songs. One of the songs is mine, one of them is "Cry My A River," which I just love. But I don't know if that's going to come out because it's supposed to be on Feel Good All Over and there tends to be a problem with Feel Good All Over getting things out.
Are you still working at the record store?
Hopefully! I'm pretty much on the low-rung.
So I guess you don't worry about making money off music.
I don't think I write that kind of music, I don't think it's accessible to regular America. Just going to Lollapalooza `cause we were put on the guest list by the Boredoms, I was walking around the crowd and it reminded my of how much of an outcast I've always felt. I just don't think I can relate to the average person and those are the people that buy the big records.
But what if some fratdaddy were to come in the record store where you work just gushing about SF Seals? Would you not like that?
Well, sure, I like when people like what I do. At the same time, I'd rather relate to the crowd I play to. I think it would worry me if I looked into the crowd and saw the frat/sorority types that I've never had anything in common with. I'd wonder if there is something I'm doing wrong.
What if you could achieve that kind of popularity without sacrificing anything?
Well, the Boredoms are on Warner Brothers now and they haven't changed a thing! I think it's possible but I don't have enough talent for that. I also don't feel like I have that many records left in me. Matador would like to sign me for another two or three records and I'm like, well, they can have the rest of my career but it probably can't be more than three records. I really want to have something permanent in my life, like a partner and a family and a home in the country and a dog...these are the things that I crave.
And you think you couldn't have that and a recording career?
I don't know. I have my four-track and a living situation where I can record any time I want, but with a record label, you have to work to support and promote a record and I just don't know what it'd be like to have children with me on the road. I lived such a nomadic childhood myself I kind of crave to raise a kid in one place. But that's a long way off. I don't even have a partner in mind.
You know, there's a local band here that does a song called "Barbara Manning."
No way! What's the band?
Special Agents of Her Majesty's Secret Cervix.
Excellent!
Yeah, they worship you.
Wow, that's weird to think...I feel so average.