interview by Carrie McLaren and Todd Morman
Continued from New Punks on the Block
Anyway, this is an intro to some bands. Special bands in that they all raise the question of what makes indie rock rock. Not special in that they're among a bunch of
bands doing so. In fact, that these four - the Coctails, Crayon, Kicking Giant, Rodan - are included here has as much to do with who's been touring the South than anything else.
Neither of the bands I interviewed personally, the Coctails or Crayon, are Women In Rock. Yet they impact women in rock. They do what they do, make music that's rockin' and poppy and playfully experimental, loud, wimpy, whatever. It all works because t he guys are tough enough not to concern themselves with what's cool.
Funny, but when I sat down to write this, it was all as an intro to Crayon. But it might as well kick off with the Coctails, a Chicago foursome that comes complete with matching dolls - stuffed miniatures of each member, available individually or as a set. There are also buttons, comics and more stuff on the way. But dolls?!? Even if they are handmade by the guys, with just about any other band such things would smack of gimmicky self-promotion. But for the Coctails they seem oddly appropriate.
That is, they address the same question that comes up with just about everything the Coctails do. From the indulgent liner notes, to the record of children's songs to the matching suits and vibes, you can't help but wonder with these guys: are they seriou s?! There's not really a yes or no answer to that question, but what becomes obvious in trying to figure it out is that the Coctails transcend "just the music;" the creative spirit is a part of everything they do. It's what the Coctails are about and so w hatever odd creations they come up with are appropriate.
They pulled off a heck of a show, by the way. Blew me away from the get-go with some jazzed-out weird ones that brought the kids into the aisles. John played two saxes at once, occasionally mumbled though a reed; "sang" through a banjo resonating chamb er (?); Mark pounded the vibes and Archer his cowbell while Barry kept the bass swinging. Moments later, they switched around and did more straight-forward, guitar-based pop tunes. Not quite as mind-altering, but not exactly shabby, either.
Our interview took place before a show in Richmond. Todd Morman, Gerta Stern (of Superclamp) and I arrived early so that Gerta, having just invested in a vibraphone, could talk shop with Coctail Mark Greenberg - who, by the way, turned out to be a liv ing doll (har, har). Still, it wasn't quite early enough to see Combustible Edison, a band that's been getting lots of national press lately as instigators of the "Cocktail Nation." Dubbed by Entertainment Weekly (or CMJ or Newsweek), the new lounge move ment lumps the Coctails in with bands like Love Jones and even less notables. Though we lost a good half hour of interview talking about this situation (I forgot to push "record"), it all came back up as the different band members drifted in and out.
By the way, if you haven't heard the Coctails, I strongly recommended The Early Hi-Ball Years (Carrot Top/Hi-Ball) as the intro. The band also has an all-instrumental "jazz" CD, Long Sound (1993). Their new one, Peel, should be out any day now and is s aid to be guitar-based.
What do you think of the Incredibly Strange Music book by Re/Search?
B The CD's worse than the book and I thought the book was terrible. First of all, they interviewed the collectors instead of the musicians themselves. Second, they left out the primary artists of that whole thing, the people who were actually goo d. Esquivel, the king of that whole lounge-retro genre, is just barely mentioned. The book had pictures of all these great records, like an amazing theremin record, but the interviews would barely mention them.
M And they don't explain what a theremin is. It's an instrument that was made in very small quantities, a really unbelievable thing. A whole three other books could have been written on it.
B The book is based on album covers. Even the interview with Martin Denny just touched on the surfacy stuff. The theremin record was put out by Dr. Samuel Hoffman, a Beverly Hills foot doctor who became a theremin virtuoso; he picked up this obsc ure instrument from the twenties invented by a Russian scientist. I read the Village Voice article about it . . .
The one where Christgau said you sucked?
B Yeah Christgau slammed us. That's fine, whatever, he's stupid, but he called the Re/Search CD "Incredibly Trivial Music" and he's right.
How was he wrong about you?
B Well, you can't say he's "wrong" because it's an opinion.
M He lumped us in in a very easy way with, like, "all these lounge bands."
How do you feel about being included as part of the "Cocktail Nation?" How do you see yourself as different from bands like Combustible Edison and Love Jones?
M The things that link us to those bands are very surface-y. We dress alike and we have vibes. So? Devo dresses alike, and so does the Dave Clark Five.
G You could say Louis Armstrong's Hot Seven and say, Sun Ra, both use the same instrumentation and both play "jazz" so they play the same kind of music.
M I wish more people would overlook the vibraphone thing because I feel more connected to bands like Thinking Fellers than the Cocktail Nation. The last album had songs where we all played horns, and the next one has no vibes at all. Of course th e press never gets around to listening to the records. People magazine and Newsweek don't know the bands. It's all just information they're regurgitating. In Chicago, too, people would like or dislike us without even hearing or seeing us. They get the vis ual information and think they know what it is. So when we play with bands like Shellac or Rodan and have great shows, it's a very satisfying night.
G We weren't asked any questions about these articles we're in. Nobody talked to us. You can tell the guy from USA Today read the Entertainment Weekly article and the CMJ article.
Do you think it's helped you in the long run?
G Well, any press is good press.
M And we're happy to have the platform, but we end up saying "no, that's not who we are" a lot. If you lump yourself in with something like that it's done before it's even started.
Why not milk it for what you can?
M Because it would be gross. It's like the grunge thing. Like when a band comes from Seattle and everybody goes, "big deal?" What's the point? To lock us into something we don't even feel connected to? It's just easier for the media that way - p egs into holes.
B Publicists need to make a scene now, not just promote a band.
Combustible Edison's press kit really plays up the lounge thing. In fact, you guys were in their press kit.
M Yeah, they include us in every interview. They're really nice people, and we're friends, but to group us together because we both like Martin Denny is a drag.
B But they really do love that music, and I do, too. They're playing music they like, which is not a bad thing.
Do you think what you do is postmodern?
M I think of postmodern as being ironic, and a little bit like knowing where you are and kind of playing off that. I think that when we started we were a little more conceptual, but now we trust each other musically more, and trust ourselves more , so if Barry writes a pop song, we play a pop song. If somebody writes a jazz song, you know.
A lot of bands use that ironic distance to protect themselves, like "if worst comes to worst and this falls apart, it never was really me."
M Right. Exactly.
B Well, Combustible Edison, I think, is very postmodern, but that's fine. I really like what they do, it's just that we're different.
How?
M I think they know what they're aiming at, and we don't. We challenge ourselves with our instrumentation, songwriting, and performance, and try to trip ourselves up musically, and that friction leads us to something else.
Do you ever play with Knitting Factory types?
B We've played there and had a great time. I think when we first started diving into jazz, it was like we were stepping into a sacred realm. John, who played saxophone, was especially nervous about doing something offensive, like pretending we we re the equal of these accomplished, distinguished musicians.
Yeah, you apologize all over yourselves in the liner notes to Long Sound.
M Well, we don't want to call ourselves jazz because that's like spitting on the shoes of jazz, like "Oh yeah, we have those instruments so I guess we're in there too." It's kind of presumptuous.
B People always say those notes are apologetic, but it was meant more to say, "We're not a jazz group, but we're doing what we're doing with these instruments."
It certainly doesn't need any apologies - Albert Ayler meets the Shaggs is great, rich ground, and more people should be in there.
M I would hope.
B I read how Charles Mingus would try to write pieces for his group in unfamiliar and difficult keys so the musicians wouldn't be able to fall back on chops that they knew but would have to constantly think to make it happen.
M It's like Beat Happening - that struggle for the song, where they'll get through it by the skin of their teeth, and that's where the song is at. In five years, if they were like the Smithereens or something and played that song, it wouldn't be the same experience. And we've run into that. We know our instruments a little bit better and it's like "Oh no" - time to switch!
You really prefer having an unfamiliar instrument in your hands?
M It leads you to different things. Like if I'm on the organ and the song's in the key of G, I know the key of G on the organ. There's less stretching; whereas if I'm holding a saxophone I'm not even sure if I'm holding it where I'm supposed to h old it. I'll just keep squeezing until I hear something that matches what I hear in my head. It feels better than thinking, "Oh, he's playing a diminished E, so I'll have to play the fifth of that, which is this, and that must be right."
B Stumbling into something by mistake turns out to be much better than anything you could have come up with on your own.
M It's giving up control. It's when the song happens rather than you making the song. And bands like Royal Trux are so much more on that vibe than Combustible Edison or Love Jones. Those bands are nowhere near that playground. We can play for 15 more years and Royal Trux will never, ever be mentioned in any of our press.
Consider this a first, then.
M It's true! The core of what we think we're doing and what we'd like to do and what our intent is, is similar to theirs, yet we're lumped in with bands with vibes and matching suits.
Welcome to Cocktail Nation.
B Make us the godfathers of that, because The Early Hi-Ball Years is stuff we did in 89-91.
M The funny thing about that CMJ article is the "must-listen-to" discography at the end. We go back to 1989 with, like, six releases and everyone else has, like, one release in 1994. It was a little satisfying, even though the whole time w e were saying, "We're not part of this!"
When's the new record supposed to come out?
M Next month. It's called Peel. It's our fourth full-length.
How is it different from Long Sound?
M It's mostly guitar-vocal songs. There's no horns on it at all.
Is Hi-ball records just you guys?
M We are Hi-ball.
Gerta (offers Wint 'o' green lifesavers all around): How old are you?
A 31
M I'm 25
G 26. And Barry's 26 also.
Songs for Children, from the packaging to the music, was so great. Have you had little kids tell you they like it?
G Oh yeah, three-year-olds like it a lot.
M I would think most of our music, or a lot of it, kids would like.
What do you do when you're not being Coctails?
M I help book a club in Chicago - Lounge Ax. Barry works in a coffee shop.
G Up until last October I was compromising my integrity for $9 an hour, working at an art gallery. I was doing freelance stuff for a while, computer programming and painting. But now my friend Matt and I are doing printing; we do a lot of the Coc tails stuff, and we just did a job for the band Tortoise. They've put out a couple of singles and we just printed the covers for their full-length, each one by hand. Because of that, we're doing Shellac's new full-length.
A I do illustration. Mostly for an entertainment paper. I've done some album covers and CDs, too.
G He does all our stuff.
What made you guys want to do dolls?
M Early on, we wanted to fill out the whole experience of seeing a band. All the bands we loved did that. Like when you went to Devo, there was so much more.
Who makes the dolls?
G Mark sews them. . .
You have a sewing machine? Do you sew other things?
M I made my first quilt this last year.
Good for you! Who stuffs the dolls?
M We all stuffed them in the van on the way here. We stuffed 14 sets.
G We've sold 3 or 4 sets on tour. And we sell a lot by mail order.
Gerta Do people ever write and tell you disgusting things they do with your dolls?
M No.
What do you sell besides t-shirts, dolls, and records?
M We have dolls, records, CDs, buttons, t-shirts. We're gonna do a cookbook and a book of poems. We had a newsletter with comics in it, but Archer's been working on a comic book which will hopefully be out next year.
How's the band doing financially?
M This is the first time that we're actually going to be splitting up a good chunk of money between us. Usually, money from mail-order or shows goes back in the band.
G We're playing a wedding this weekend back in Chicago, and that's usually good money.
M Yeah, if we could do an all-wedding tour, we'd be set!
Do you have side projects? Archer, aren't you playing with Sam from Shrimpboat? Sea and Cake or something like that?
A We recorded one record and it's on Rough Trade UK. It's probably going to be released on Thrill Jockey here. And we just recorded our second album. We haven't mixed it down yet. We'll probably tour the East Coast in June.
How did you all meet? Did you all move from Kansas together?
M We went to school in Kansas City. Archer had already graduated, but he was kind of infamous around the neighborhood. After the three of us graduated, we put out our first record and then moved to Chicago and the end of summer.
What are your points of reference in 70's pop culture?
A Devo. The uniformity, delivery and idea. The off-kilter presentation was pretty mind-altering.
M Kiss. Definitely. I mean, I liked the Beatles and I grew up with the Beatles and it was great music, but when I saw Kiss, that was a band that made me want to be in a band and play an instrument.
Have you seen Strutter? They play in North Carolina all the time.
M No, not yet.
G I've heard they're really good.
M They wear Kiss' actual outfits. Gene Simmons presented the original outfits to them because they were so good.
G In the suburbs around Chicago are all these tribute bands. You can go through the local show listings and take guesses at who they are. Like, Presence is a Zeppelin cover band.
M In the Pink.
G Tres Hombres. And then there's Ed's Dream Police and Mo's Dream Police - two of them.
What's the worst audience response you ever gotten?
G We had ice thrown at us at one of our earliest shows. We were playing at this club called the Hurricane in Kansas City. It's run by this evil entertainment mafia that books 14 clubs in Kansas City. They'll book you into their own club and then charge you a booking fee. Like 15% of what they pay you they take back. Anyway, we only had about 45 minutes of material so when we finish they're like, "You have to play for another hour." So we just pulled out all the trash, even played a couple of song s over . . .
M They hate us anyway! There's no one there that liked us and she's making us play for another hour because they need music so people drink.
When Royal Trux was in Chapel Hill, the frat bar they played in made them do that. They went on and played this half-hour sludge version of "Lookout Joe."
G We took off our shirts and turned into the Sex Pistols.
M And we played "Celebration." So everyone called us "Faag!"
Do you usually get booked with rock bands?
M We like to be booked with rock bands. Our booking agent books Jesus Lizard, Jon Spencer, Pavement, bands like that.
(Gary leaves to play on Combustible Edison's last song)
What do you think of the new Johnny Cash record?
M It's great, we were just listening to it in the van.
What folk influences do you play off of? You have some great songs with banjo.
M I think I know the songs you're talking about, but they just come out of the instruments we're using at the time. It's more that than any conscious effort to get, say, a Neil Young sound. It's like the reason I play vibes is because I don't rea lly listen to any people who play vibes.
What sort of musical training have you all had?
M We were all in bands; like Barry played bass and I played drums.
Can you read and write music?
M If we sat down we could, but it's not what we do. I play bass on a lot of songs now, and I know that the top is an E, but if somebody said "give me a C" I wouldn't know what to do. It's all by ear, like most rock bands probably.
What's the most exotic instrument you've ever played?
B I got to play a theremin once. It's an antenna instrument, and by bringing your hands near the antennas you make the music; you never touch the instrument. Jon Spencer has one.
M It sounds like "wooooeeeeeooouuuuuuweeeeeooo"
B A force field is set up between the antennas and bringing your hand into it changes the capacity of the circuit. It's a very, very difficult instrument to play because there's no tactile reference point and you have to slide into the notes, lis ten and adjust.
M I played a celeste on the "Winter Wonderland" 7". It's a set of bells with a piano. Instead of the piano hammers hitting strings, they're hitting metal bells. Remember "Sugar Plum Fairy"? It's a pretty great instrument.
Well, thanks a lot. You guys are great!
Go to the next article: Kicking Giants Interview